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Java Programming [Archive] - Kurt Goedel
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Posts:36
Registered: 9/21/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 7, 2004 1:27 PM (reply 345 of 635)



 
Having read this entire thread over the last few days, what amazes me is the association some posters make between absolute truth and 'intolerance and hatred'.

The fact is, many statements worth believing are contradictory to other statements. If I say that the earth is round, I am also saying that the earth is not flat, and furthermore I am saying that people who believe the earth is flat are wrong. This does not make me intolerant. I simply could not claim to believe the earth is round, if I also said that the earth could also be flat.

This nature of truth doesn't change with religion. If I say I believe that JC is the son of God, as he claimed, I am saying that other belief systems that deny this fact are wrong. This doesn't make me intolerant, it's just the nature of believing anything.

I also need to say that the way JC was presented in a previous post is not accurate. While it's true that he said we should love one another, he also said he was the only way to God. He made many controversial statements that would probably get him labeled as 'hateful and intolerant' today. Again, if I believe that JC is the only way to God, then I must by extension believe that other religions are wrong if they deny this statement.

Whether I am also 'hateful and intolerant' depends on how I treat people who disagree with me. I can be respectful and kind to people, but that doesn't require me to say 'even though our beliefs are totally contradictory, I believe yours is true as well'. This is intellectual suicide. (For the record, I am respectful and kind to people who disagree with me).

I've met people who are 'hateful and intolerant' based on their choice of car, operating system, programming language, religion, sports team, race, language, gender, web browser and many other categories. I believe these are 'hateful, intolerant' people who will fight you over what ever category you disagree with them on.

Glen
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 7, 2004 1:30 PM (reply 346 of 635)



 
Thanks, glenwill. I think that's an excellent summation of what I've been trying to say somewhat ineffectively.

OK, Maxx, the sword of logic has been leveled again. Parry if you dare!
 

Posts:37,103
Registered: 3/30/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 7, 2004 1:56 PM (reply 347 of 635)



 
The fact is, many statements worth believing are
contradictory to other statements. If I say that the
earth is round, I am also saying that the earth is not
flat, and furthermore I am saying that people who
believe the earth is flat are wrong. This does not
make me intolerant. I simply could not claim to
believe the earth is round, if I also said that the
earth could also be flat.

This nature of truth doesn't change with religion. If
I say I believe that JC is the son of God, as he
claimed, I am saying that other belief systems that
deny this fact are wrong. This doesn't make me
intolerant, it's just the nature of believing
anything.

Agreed.

I also need to say that the way JC was presented in a
previous post is not accurate. While it's true that
he said we should love one another, he also said he
was the only way to God. He made many controversial
statements that would probably get him labeled as
'hateful and intolerant' today. Again, if I believe
that JC is the only way to God, then I must by
extension believe that other religions are wrong if
they deny this statement.

This is true, and it fits with what you said above. Where it's a bit incomplete, however, is in that it's not a great leap from "this religion is the only path to god" to "...and therefore, everyone who doesn't follow this religion is therefore rejecting god, and rejecting god is evil, so..."

I'm not making any claims as to whether any given religion does or does not make such a statement as part of its official doctrine, but I think it's not uncommon for individuals to interpret the doctrine that way--whether through a simple misunderstanding or through a desire to see it that way as justification for attitudes and actions that may be considered inappropriate by society, "The Gummint," or other individuals or institutions.

When the person who makes these inflammatory interpretations is in a position of leadership or influence in his religious community, you're likely to have the seeds of group bad behavior in the name of religion.

You can say "But that's just a perversion of the religion. The religion doesn't teach that." I don't think it's that simple becase "the religion" is not, IMHO, a single, fixed, unambiguous set of teachings. Look at the arguments that pop up here over interpretations of the JLS. I think most religious doctrines are probably less rigid and more amiguous and open to interpretation than Java's "holy book".

To say a particular religion does or does not teach something is in itself incomplete, IMHO, since "the teachings of the religion" can have many meaings. There's what's written in the holy book(s). There's how the leaders at the highest levels interpret that. There's how mid-level leaders implement their own interpretation of what the higher-ups say. There's how a priest/pastor/shaman/whatever adapts that to his own beliefs or agenda when preaching to his flock. There are the parents in that flock setting examples for their kids and telling them "God says such-and-such.

All of the above are "teachings of the religion" in that they were taught in the name of the religion, and can probably be supported by something passed down from "higher up".

 

Posts:4,906
Registered: 23/07/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 5:41 AM (reply 348 of 635)



 
Errr....I would like to see the link on that.

I read it in Reader's Digest a few years ago. It appears that the article you link corrects it.
 

Posts:36
Registered: 9/21/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 5:52 AM (reply 349 of 635)



 
This is true, and it fits with what you said above.
Where it's a bit incomplete, however, is in that it's
not a great leap from "this religion is the
only path to god" to "...and therefore, everyone who
doesn't follow this religion is therefore rejecting
god, and rejecting god is evil, so..."

So what your saying is that while all religions (nudge, nudge) teach that we should love our neighbor (wink, wink), what they really mean (nudge, nudge) is that we should go out and hate everyone that disagrees with us, (wink, wink) but of course claim that it's not in our religion (nudge, nudge) to do that (wink, wink), and obviously you're just misunderstanding our intentions.

I don't see this as a valid assumption. While I can't speak in any detail for religions other than protestant Christianity (which is my faith), I can say that this type of thought pattern is completely out of line with what is actually taught in protestent churches.

"JC is the only path to God" is not taught in a vacuum. It is taught alongside other important truths, such as "love they neighbor" and "there is none that is righteous". In truth, the teaching of my faith is that we are all sinners ('evil', if you will) at the same rate, and that we need JC to forgive us. Those who have done this have no reason to boast over those that have not. "hate and intolerance" of those who disagree would be a sin in itself.

I did not mean to take us down a path of discussing one specific faith, and hope this doesn't result in arguments over who's right/wrong. My point is that if at least one major religion does not fit this pattern, then you can't make a universal statement that religions teaching absolute truth always leads to "intolerance and hate".

I will say again, I believe the real problem is that certain people will always use our differences to foster hatred. Those can be race, religion, gender, sports team, OS, Microsoft vs. the world, etc. If those people get into positions of power, their organizations will likely reflect that viewpoint.

Glen
 

Posts:1,923
Registered: 4/17/03
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 6:34 AM (reply 350 of 635)



 
hate
have
cave
cove
love

So you see, hate and love are really the same thing.
 

Posts:36
Registered: 9/21/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 7:04 AM (reply 351 of 635)



 
Having said the above, I must sheepishly admit that I do not prefer large denominations. I believe churches work best when the local body of believers is responsible for their own body. This is not because I believe large denominations are evil or cause intolerance, but because I believe that very large, centrally controlled organizations are unwieldy, and that smaller organizations can better respond to the needs of their people and to the culture around them.

My church belongs to a large affiliation of independent churches, that use the association of this group to gain many of the benefits of a denomination (access to resources like teaching material, video content, conferences, etc.) without being controlled by this affiliation. Churches that feel they are like-minded with this association, can freely join, and can freely quit if they cease to be like-minded.

At a certain level, I guess I agree with jschell about how size changes an organization, I just don't believe that (nor am I suggesting he said that):
- it's religion that makes them change (it's size)
- it automatically means they will become evil doers
- evil doers claiming the name of a religious group automatically make the rest of the religious group culpable

Also, I am well aware that there are examples of people naming themselves protestants, and fighting others who are not protestants, thinking particularly of the Irish protestants and Irish catholics. I am not naive enough to think all protestants think the way I do. However, I again would submit that these are people who will fight over differences regardless, and the differences they see happen to be religion. In the same way that different ethnic groups fight each other in some countries.

Glen
 

Posts:2,562
Registered: 6/7/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 7:15 AM (reply 352 of 635)



 
I can say that this type of thought pattern is completely out of
line with what is actually taught in protestent
churches.

the message can't be getting through to the foot solidiers very clearly :o)

i say that on the belief that most wars (present and historical) have been at least in part religiously motivated? the troubles in israel, iraq, northern ireland and probably many more have religious shades (ok, so iraq is maybe more about oil)

i don't know whether or not the bible / koran advocate spreading the word by means other than peaceful (i've heard people give quotes supporting both sides, so the message is at least mixed?) but thats not necessarily the point as the texts are normally retranslated/interpreted to fit what suits the forces driving the modern world (?)

Microsoft vs. the world

i've been trying to find if anyone has written about the dogmatic hatred of microsoft as a social phenomenon - i meet (too many) people who put a lot of energy into disparaging microsoft and think the motivation is more tribal than technical. (thats not to say there isn't lots wrong with microsoft but that whinging is a rather impotent way of dealing with it)
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 8:01 AM (reply 353 of 635)



 
I can say that this type of thought pattern is
completely out of
line with what is actually taught in protestent
churches.

the message can't be getting through to the foot
solidiers very clearly :o)

Another overly broad generalization. You just completely discounted all of the "foot soldiers" who are doing good and loving their neighbors. What am I, chopped liver?

Microsoft vs. the world

i've been trying to find if anyone has written about
the dogmatic hatred of microsoft as a social
phenomenon - i meet (too many) people who put a lot of
energy into disparaging microsoft and think the
motivation is more tribal than technical. (thats not
to say there isn't lots wrong with microsoft but that
whinging is a rather impotent way of dealing with it)

I'd say there's plenty wrong with MS, and probably the same things are wrong with most big corporations. MS just has the money, power and prominence to make their lack of ethics more obvious than is usually the case.
 

Posts:37,103
Registered: 3/30/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 9:30 AM (reply 354 of 635)



 
This is true, and it fits with what you said above.
Where it's a bit incomplete, however, is in that
it's
not a great leap from "this religion is the
only path to god" to "...and therefore, everyone who
doesn't follow this religion is therefore rejecting
god, and rejecting god is evil, so..."

So what your saying is that while all religions
(nudge, nudge) teach that we should love our neighbor
(wink, wink), what they really mean (nudge, nudge) is
that we should go out and hate everyone that disagrees
with us, (wink, wink) but of course claim that it's
not in our religion (nudge, nudge) to do that (wink,
wink), and obviously you're just misunderstanding our
intentions.

No, I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that "X is the one true path" and "...ergo those who don't follow X must be destroyed," can be connected without too big a logical journey. I'm not saying the second must follow from the first, but someone who wanted to make the connection could. Sometimes that's just a hateful individual justifying his actions. And while I can't prove it, it seems extremely probably that sometimes it's done by religious leaders at various levels. It may be as a calculated attempt to further their own ends, or it may be because they believe that's truly what god meant.

"JC is the only path to God" is not taught in a
vacuum. It is taught alongside other important
truths, such as "love they neighbor" and "there is
none that is righteous".

Agreed. But some of those teachings can be seen as contradicting each other. It's very easy for a follower of the religion to pick the "side" that best fits what he wants or believes and ignore the rest.


I did not mean to take us down a path of discussing
one specific faith, and hope this doesn't result in
arguments over who's right/wrong. My point is that if
at least one major religion does not fit this pattern,
then you can't make a universal statement that
religions teaching absolute truth always leads to
"intolerance and hate".

Are you addressing me with this? Because I certainly did not make "a universal statemetn that religions teaching absolut truth always leds to 'intolerance and hate.'"
 

Posts:37,103
Registered: 3/30/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 9:31 AM (reply 355 of 635)



 
Having said the above, I must sheepishly admit that I
do not prefer large denominations.

Okay, then send them to me--1000s, 100s, 50s, even 20s if you don't want them.
 

Posts:4,906
Registered: 23/07/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 10:00 AM (reply 356 of 635)



 
So you see, hate and love are really the same thing.

Permit me to optimise:

hate
have
hove
love
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 10:13 AM (reply 357 of 635)



 
Or:

hate
late
lave
love

This has the advantage that the word next to hate has negative connotations, and the word next to love has positive connotations. :-)
 

Posts:2,562
Registered: 6/7/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 10:39 AM (reply 358 of 635)



 
hate
late
lave
lava
java

what does it all mean???
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 8, 2004 10:45 AM (reply 359 of 635)



 
love
lave
lava
java

Note that there is a shorter path between java and love than between java and hate. ;-)
 
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