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Java Programming [Archive] - Kurt Goedel
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Posts:19,725
Registered: 9/26/01
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 10:57 AM (reply 30 of 635)



 
2. A cell in itself doesn't have any inherent meaning.
3. If one cell doesn't have any meaning then no
composition of cells has any meaning.
4. You're a composition of cells so the mere fact that
you live doesn't provide any meaning to your life.

Apparently you think people are nothing but a composition of cells? Speak for yourself.
 

Posts:175
Registered: 1/20/03
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 11:38 AM (reply 31 of 635)



 
A cell in itself has a great deal of inherent meaning. I feel this fact to be so painfully obvious that no argument will convince those who need one.
 

Posts:4,906
Registered: 23/07/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 11:55 AM (reply 32 of 635)



 
I don't see that claim in this thread.

No, it was in the previous thread.
 

Posts:4,906
Registered: 23/07/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 11:57 AM (reply 33 of 635)



 
What we're missing in this discussion is a religious fundamentalist nut. Could someone play the part please?

I don't know about playing a part, but you'd probably call me a religious fundamentalist nut. Phrase a good question, and I'll be happy to answer. (By "good question", I mean that I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "the meaning of life").
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 12:06 PM (reply 34 of 635)



 
A cell in itself has a great deal of inherent meaning.
I feel this fact to be so painfully obvious that no
argument will convince those who need one.

Ah, so you can make two controversial claims (one implied by the other), while at the same time exempting yourself from any need to defend those claims. Where did you learn that tactic? That's not a rhetorical question, I really am curious.
 

Posts:1,135
Registered: 1/16/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 12:19 PM (reply 35 of 635)



 
It has been agreed that all meaning is assigned by
some observer.

Open questions: Is there any meaning to life?
Obviously based on prior discussion any such meaning
would have to be assigned by an observer. Is there
any purpose to life? Note that I make a distinction
between "purpose of life" and "purpose of a life,"
where the latter could mean "one particular person's
goal(s) in life," and the former means life in
general.

Purpose of Life... We will go with the general purpose of life... what is the purpose, well at the most basic level it is to survive to reproduce... to replicate... past that, no other purpose other than to become a "worm farmer" (deceased and buried) so that the next generation can reap the raw materials that we once were...

Meaning... that is a whole different matter... I think ( although I may not exist ) the meaning needs a purpose while a purpose can forego any meaning... The purpose of a football is to be used in a game, but does that football have any meaning. I would say not, other than the meaning that we place on it. Otherwise it is no different than any other football... Right ?

But not all things abstract or otherwise needs a purpose or a meaning, it is simple a mantle to obscure the truth that we can not except... Once our offspring are ready to reproduce, we cease to have a function. Evidenced by the undeniable proof as our once youthful bodies slowly dwindle away. As our abilities waste away from it once former glory, our life waning and the stench of death lurking from the very bowels of the earth...

So what do we do, well we know the basic purpose, to reproduce and ensure the "survival" of the species in hopes that it to will not cease to exists, as so many of our ancestors had done before.
For those of us who have produce offspring, we can go in peace, we have served our purpose. Yet for those who have not for what ever reason, now face the daunting truth, no offspring, no purpose only death... death in its true form... nothingness... Pretty dismal...

So we apply meaning to placate our minds which know that we finite, mortal, that in the end there is nothing... If an observer can place meaning whether abstract or not, then but getting other observers to agree that it has meaning, gives generates a sense of purpose and meaning to life, and because they agree... they ' validate ' its meaning and purpose. But still life is finite, so they extend purpose and meaning to ease their fears. Hence the creation of afterlife, which "gives" a meaning to life, and a "purpose" to live it. And since the observers agree that there must be an afterlife, then it must exist with out requiring proof... A dream so that the truth can be denied, and that we can become immortal. But that meaning and purpose was created from nothing, and therefore becomes nothing but a dream...

That's why the elderly suddenly become "religious", because they need to truly "believe" the dream while denying the obvious, that soon they will cease to exist. No afterlife, why what would be the purpose, what meaning would it have... except that which we create and place upon it, a belief that is created from nothing... Since we can make thing like say "pens", do you really concern youself with something that is disposabe and can be replaced. To extend that further... Would a "Creator" be concerned with us anymore that we are concerned for a pen? Plenty of material to make more of us, why clutter his\her\its space with us... Or is this also part of the dream to create meaning and purpose to life...

Funny, we came from non-existance, its only logical that we would return...
it only makes sense...
And in the end I have said nothing...
and nothing has been said...

The tao that can be toldis not the eternal TaoThe name that can be namedis not the eternal Name. The unnamable is the eternally real.Naming is the originof all particular things. Free from desire, you realize the mystery.Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations. Yet mystery and manifestationsarise from the same source.This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness.The gateway to all understanding. - Lao Tzu 


- MaxxDmg...

- ' He who never sleeps... '
 

Posts:1,135
Registered: 1/16/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 12:30 PM (reply 36 of 635)



 
A cell in itself has a great deal of inherent meaning.

I disagree... You typed this message, which by default means that you inadvertently remove cell from your finger tips, your wrists ( from rubbing on desk or wrist pad), from you back and bottom where they make contact with the chair... What meaning did those cells have for you...

I feel this fact to be so painfully obvious that no
argument will convince those who need one.

Yes of course, because now they place great meaning to that which they no longer have... Notice how meaning is usually place with lack of, missing, and nothingness...

Water has no meaning until you place it (meaning) when its depleted... But for those with plenty, how much meaning do you thing the give water ? Probably not as much one someone in the dessert...

- MaxxDmg...

- ' He who never sleeps... '
 

Posts:1,183
Registered: 1/23/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 12:44 PM (reply 37 of 635)



 
What we're missing in this discussion is a religious fundamentalist nut. Could someone play the part please?

I don't know about playing a part, but you'd probably call me a religious fundamentalist nut.

I'm finding that hard. Your response is not in line with what I'd expect form a nut of any kind. Being religious in the sense of acknowledging the existence of a supreme being is logical. Being a religious fundemantalist nut involves shaking one holy book or another at any quesion and shouting "Because It Says So Here!!!".

Are you religious in the sense that you subscribe to a particular church's teaching? If so then I do have a question for you (regardless of which church it is).
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 1:21 PM (reply 38 of 635)



 
Are you religious in the sense that you subscribe to a
particular church's teaching? If so then I do have a
question for you (regardless of which church it is).

I am.
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 1:27 PM (reply 39 of 635)



 
Now this is getting good!

Purpose of Life... We will go with the general purpose
of life... what is the purpose, well at the most basic
level it is to survive to reproduce... to replicate...
past that, no other purpose other than to become a
"worm farmer" (deceased and buried) so that the next
generation can reap the raw materials that we once
were...

Doesn't purpose imply intent? "The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal OR A result or effect that is intended or desired; an intention." If so, if life has a purpose, then that implies that the purpose is created (intended? assigned?) by someone. By whom?

Meaning... that is a whole different matter... I think
( although I may not exist ) the meaning needs a
purpose while a purpose can forego any meaning... The
purpose of a football is to be used in a game, but
does that football have any meaning. I would say not,
other than the meaning that we place on it. Otherwise
it is no different than any other football... Right ?

I don't think a particular item can have meaning (note a distinction between "meaning" and "significance") as "meaning" applies only to symbols or messages IMO. The football has a purpose because its creator created it for a purpose.

But not all things abstract or otherwise needs a
purpose or a meaning, it is simple a mantle to obscure
the truth that we can not except... Once our offspring
are ready to reproduce, we cease to have a function.

Can 'o Worms warning! Even if we are no longer needed to pass on genes, this does not imply that we have no function. There could be plenty of uses for someone with sexually mature offspring, even looking at it from a biological perspective (the survival of the species).

Evidenced by the undeniable proof as our once youthful
bodies slowly dwindle away.

What would you think if we were able to halt the aging process? Would that change the purpose of life?

As for your comments about an afterlife, I will just mention the irony that only one group could be proved right. If you are correct, then no one will ever know it. :-)
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 1:28 PM (reply 40 of 635)



 
Water has no meaning until you place it (meaning) when
its depleted... But for those with plenty, how much
meaning do you thing the give water ? Probably not as
much one someone in the dessert...

It seems you might be mixing the definitions (meanings that is (-: ) of "meaning" with "significance," "importance," or similar words. I wouldn't consider them synonyms.
 

Posts:1,183
Registered: 1/23/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 1:41 PM (reply 41 of 635)



 
I am.

The question that's bothering me is this.

A church is a organisation of people, with all their human faults (greed among them). As an organisation, it benefits from having you as its loyal member. It also has the job of teaching you about the supreme being. As it presents the teching to you a church has the power to scare, guilt or cheat you for its own benefit. In the face of human greed it's hard to think that this power is not used.

Moreover, you could argue that in a struggle of churches ones that prevail and last, ones that are around today, are the most successful at using their teaching to build their own power.

In this setting, do you belive your church's entire teaching literally and unreservedly? If not, how do you decide which doctrines to belive or not?
 

Posts:175
Registered: 1/20/03
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 1:58 PM (reply 42 of 635)



 
As it presents the teching to you a church has
the power to scare, guilt or cheat you for its own
benefit. In the face of human greed it's hard to
think that this power is not used.

Clearly you're forgetting the Paraclete.

Moreover, you could argue that in a struggle of
churches ones that prevail and last, ones that are
around today, are the most successful at using their
teaching to build their own power.

But would the argument be sound?
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 2:09 PM (reply 43 of 635)



 
In this setting, do you belive your church's entire
teaching literally and unreservedly?

I'm not sure I can answer that question, since I doubt I know my church's entire teaching thoroughly.

If not, how do
you decide which doctrines to belive or not?

I will answer this question exactly is it's asked - how do I decide. I hope that I don't get flamed for applying unscientific methods to my religious life, but we'll see. The fundamental principle upon which I (and most members of my church) rely is that we (meaning all people) are entitled to personal revelation. This doesn't seem the appropriate forum to discuss this principle in detail, though. Skipping over some of that, I believe that the scriptures I can read are accurate reflections of God's will (whether historically accurate or not), so I can judge anything else by its consistency with those scriptures.

I hope that answer isn't too vague and unsatisfying. If you feel like supplying an email address or the location of a better public forum for this I'd be happy to continue the discussion.
 

Posts:1,183
Registered: 1/23/02
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 1, 2004 2:10 PM (reply 44 of 635)



 
Clearly you're forgetting the Paraclete.

Paraphrased, "this teaching is right because it says so"?

But would the argument be sound?

You can debunk it if it's not. You can simply tell me that you have faith and see no need to defend in by logical constructions. That'd be good enough for me. I merely want to understand your (and others') view on the question which I personally find difficult.
 
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