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Java Programming [Archive] - Kurt Goedel
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Posts:7,499
Registered: 02-11-14
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 1:26 PM (reply 270 of 635)



 
I think you're making sense, but you have to remember
that a church is made up of people. Saying that the
Roman Catholic Church was not responsible for the
Crusades (or Inquisition, or whatever) because it was
really the people within the church that did it, is
missing the point IMO.

Perhaps, then, I am again using my own definitions :(
The organized religion as I understood it, would be the doctrines the Roman Catholic Church is built on. The rules/regulations/etc (that would make RCC different from Greek Orthodox, etc...). The Roman Catholic Church would be the people structure built on the religious doctrine. Whereas the people structure at any given point in time might be flawed to the extreme, the doctrine itself is not necessarily to blame. So we can put the blame on the Roman Catholic Church, but not on Roman Catholicism... perhaps I am more clear now?

(the people structure(Church) = the beauracrocy and the religion = doctrine)

The leaders of the church
directed those actions. At the same time, it's wrong
to blame the current RCC for that, or to blame the
whole collection of all churches for it.

P.S. There's no need to pick historical nits if
someone disagrees about what exactly happened in the
Crusades. That's not my point, I was just making an
example and it's what came to mind.
 

Posts:7,499
Registered: 02-11-14
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 1:27 PM (reply 271 of 635)



 
Yes I would; and I would show them figures showing
them that those 100 euros missed are nothing
compared to all the costs they're making attempting to
collect those 100 euros ... I can hardly wait ;-)

Hehe. Sadly I don't think there will be a gov't in existance who will see the humor in this :)


kind regards,

Jos
 

Posts:11,186
Registered: 06.04.04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 1:32 PM (reply 272 of 635)



 
With religion, the followers derive their morality from it.

I don't know about that. Isn't it possible that a lot of people join churches that are aligned with their
own concept of morality, rather than joining a church and then adapting their morals accordingly?

The second option is less realistic than the first and the first option is the more dangerous one;
Groucho Marx once said something like this: "And club that'd accept me as a member, I would
refuse admission". I very much sympathise with that ...

kind regards,

Jos
 

Posts:11,186
Registered: 06.04.04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 1:35 PM (reply 273 of 635)



 
Oops... "For those who abuse His name, there will be no escape on judgment day." - Silent Warrior (Enigma)

<diabolical laughter>
Haha! now, just forgetting some capitalisation you have to burn in hell and you'll be tortured in the comfy chair!

Jos (nobody expects the Spanish inquisition!)
 

Posts:37,103
Registered: 3/30/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 1:44 PM (reply 274 of 635)



 
Yes I would; and I would show them figures showing
them that those 100 euros missed are nothing
compared to all the costs they're making attempting
to
collect those 100 euros ... I can hardly wait ;-)

Hehe. Sadly I don't think there will be a gov't in
existance who will see the humor in this :)

Then too, there's the possibility that your government would levy an additional fine against you to recoup the cost of recovering that €100. I have no idea whether any particular government does that, but it does seem logical.
 

Posts:11,186
Registered: 06.04.04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 1:45 PM (reply 275 of 635)



 
Yes I would; and I would show them figures showing them that those 100 euros missed are nothing
compared to all the costs they're making attempting to collect those 100 euros ... I can hardly wait ;-)

Hehe. Sadly I don't think there will be a gov't in existance who will see the humor in this :)

I don't think so either; but in the mean time I can make my little statement and there still is the threat
that what would happen if 10000 people did the same? or more? ... And in the mean time I feel
honest to myself; I find the government a very big spending inefficient institution and it is my right
to say something about it. Instead of standing in front of government buildings, shouting, I simple
withdraw some cash from them; year after year and I've received no complaints sofar, so I must
conclude that they agree. Next year I go for the 200 euro deduction ...

It's a slow iterative process; how much money does (Dutch) government spill per inhabitant. It must
be more than 100 euro per year per person ...

kind regards,

Jos
 

Posts:4,680
Registered: 6/14/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 1:49 PM (reply 276 of 635)



 
stevejluke loves to play the "devil's advocate" ... don't you? (no punn intended, really ;o)

This Organized Religion vs Church distinction may exist, but in practical terms I dare say, is of no practical value. In the minds of most I would hazard a guess - no, no surveys taken I admit - there is no difference between the two. Therefore, if one catches flack, so doith the other; conversely, if one is admired, so isith the other.

The fact that the rules and bylaws of any 'O-R' (if you will allow) determine the limits and reaches of power of it's officials, and also the dicipline and punishment of said officials if they appear to err inherently implicates the O-R itself for it's conduct ... and not just the 'Church' (using your own desciption).

But there's another matter entirely when speaking of any O-R, or 'Church' for that matter, and that's that in the large majority of the cases these state and to one extent of another believe and claim and clammer for God's (or gods) approval. Therefore, on the one hand there is the opin of the populace that any O-R need contend with; on the other there is the more important viewpoint of God (or if you like, the god/s) that the O-R or 'Church' claim to represent.

So, it may follow in the minds of some, that if there really is such person as God (or god/s) will such Person's opinion not be paramount in importance in all such matters? Will not this God (god/s) decide in the end whether the O-R's conduct is desearving of any consequence? Really, if there is/are no such God(god/s), then the very doctrine of most O-Rs is outrageous at best.
 

Posts:31,095
Registered: 4/30/99
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 2:08 PM (reply 277 of 635)



 
Then too, there's the possibility that your government
would levy an additional fine against you to recoup
the cost of recovering that €100. I have no idea
whether any particular government does that, but it
does seem logical.

That is certainly what the Canadian government does. When it convicts you of tax evasion it normally requires you to pay the back taxes plus interest and also levies a fine. I am certain the American IRS and the tax authorities of the other developed countries do likewise.

PC²
 

Posts:7,499
Registered: 02-11-14
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 2:14 PM (reply 278 of 635)



 
stevejluke loves to play the "devil's advocate" ...
don't you? (no punn intended, really ;o)

Hehe. Guilty...

This Organized Religion vs Church distinction may
exist, but in practical terms I dare say, is of no
practical value.

I would really disagree here though. The church would be more of an interpretation of the doctrine, and can be subject to flaws the doctrine does not hold itself...

In the minds of most I would hazard a
guess - no, no surveys taken I admit - there is no
difference between the two. Therefore, if one catches
flack, so doith the other; conversely, if one is
admired, so isith the other.

This tends to be true, but I would warrent that this should not (necessarily) be the case.

The fact that the rules and bylaws of any 'O-R' (if
you will allow) determine the limits and reaches of
power of it's officials, and also the dicipline and
punishment of said officials if they appear to err
inherently implicates the O-R itself for it's conduct
... and not just the 'Church' (using your own
desciption).

Over a period of time, this type of constant abuse by a Church would implicate the O-R as the source of trouble.

But there's another matter entirely when speaking of
any O-R, or 'Church' for that matter, and that's that
in the large majority of the cases these state and to
one extent of another believe and claim and clammer
for God's (or gods) approval. Therefore, on the one
hand there is the opin of the populace that any O-R
need contend with; on the other there is the more
important viewpoint of God (or if you like, the god/s)
that the O-R or 'Church' claim to represent.

Perhaps this is why the distinction between O-R and Church is important (to me anyways)? The O-R speaks towards the god's desires (bad word maybe, hope you understand), while the Church speaks towards the peoples. I dunno... trying to work on the distinction I have in my mind, and get it out onto the forums. I will think about it more and try to restate later this evening or tomorrow. It may be that what I am stating as Church(people structure) is what Jos, Maxx, and jschell are speaking against... and not what I had referred to as O-R (the doctrine) dunno though...


So, it may follow in the minds of some, that if there
really is such person as God (or god/s) will such
Person's opinion not be paramount in importance in all
such matters? Will not this God (god/s) decide in the
end whether the O-R's conduct is desearving of any
consequence? Really, if there is/are no such
God(god/s), then the very doctrine of most O-Rs is
outrageous at best.
 

Posts:11,186
Registered: 06.04.04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 2:26 PM (reply 279 of 635)



 
Then too, there's the possibility that your government would levy an additional fine against you to
recoup the cost of recovering that �100. I have no idea whether any particular government does that,
but it does seem logical.

That is certainly what the Canadian government does. When it convicts you of tax evasion it normally
requires you to pay the back taxes plus interest and also levies a fine. I am certain the American IRS and
the tax authorities of the other developed countries do likewise.

Not so overhere (the Netherlands). First (after filling out all those forms) they give you a 'temporary'
refund or send you a 'temporary' bill for additional payements. After that has been settled, after a year
or so, they (the Dutch equivalent of the IRS) come to a 'permanent' settlement. There's no way they
can wiggle themselves out of that and there's no way you can alter that 'verdict' (mind the quotes)
without stepping up to court.

I have more than a dozen of those permanent settlements in my drawer w.r.t. those 100 euros
(I used to charge them 200 guilders for governmental inefficiency but i raised the price a bit ;-)

kind regards,

Jos
 

Posts:1,025
Registered: 04-03-17
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 2:45 PM (reply 280 of 635)



 
Oops... "For those who abuse His name, there will be
no escape on judgment day." - Silent Warrior (Enigma)

<diabolical laughter>
Haha! now, just forgetting some capitalisation you
have to burn in hell and you'll be tortured in the comfy chair!

...and you will stay there until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven
 

Posts:11,186
Registered: 06.04.04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 2:53 PM (reply 281 of 635)



 
Oops... "For those who abuse His name, there will be no escape on judgment day."
- Silent Warrior (Enigma)

<diabolical laughter>
Haha! now, just forgetting some capitalisation you have to burn in hell and you'll be tortured in the
comfy chair!

...and you will stay there until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven

Rats ... and how about scones and clotted cream and sugar?

Jos (or just some biscuits then? Please? pretty please? have mercy with a poor soul ... ;-)
 

Posts:27,518
Registered: 11/3/97
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 3:05 PM (reply 282 of 635)



 

Perhaps, then, I am again using my own definitions :(
The organized religion as I understood it, would be
the doctrines the Roman Catholic Church is built on.
The rules/regulations/etc (that would make RCC
different from Greek Orthodox, etc...). The Roman
Catholic Church would be the people structure built
on the religious doctrine. Whereas the people
structure at any given point in time might be flawed
to the extreme, the doctrine itself is not
necessarily to blame. So we can put the blame on the
Roman Catholic Church, but not on Roman
Catholicism... perhaps I am more clear now?

Yes. So let me be clear....

I am not talking about how organizations should operate - I am discussing how they do operate.

And I am certainly not discussing how a religion should be implemented but rather how it is.

 

Posts:1,135
Registered: 1/16/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 3:42 PM (reply 283 of 635)



 
Oops... "For those who abuse His name, there will be no escape on judgment day." - Silent Warrior >(Enigma)

Even in our differences we are similiar...

Loose quote from Enigma Le Roi es Mort, Viv le Roi ( spelling ???)
" There is no Teacher who can teach us anything new, but only help us remember what we already known"

First to answer stevejluke...

When the base religious organization make part of the doctorine,
"We are the only TRUE faith"...

that religious organizition basically invalidates all other beliefs,
so other religions and their followers are looked at as false, heretics, evil, and whatnot...
This shows intolerance and hate, and most will agree, this is generally not taught by the originator of the faith...
i.e. JC - "Love one another..."
So that means that the organization doctrine differs from the faith and is plagued with contradictions...
i.e.
JC -" Love the enemy"
Religious Leader " and He said Love the enemy, but we must rid the world of the heretics and unbelievers, kill the heathens"
JC - " Hey, Pete... They still don't get it, get ready for another rush of souls..., make sure the leader go to the other place"
but apparently the religious institution does...
Sadly, many of the institutions base their "Goodness" on the acts of a few exemplary individual... And use those individuals to promote their doctrine and institution...
And by the way, If those institutions are intent on helping the needy and unfortunate, why then do they spend money and resources in super expensive decorations and facilites... Would it not make more sense just to build a simple building and spend the money saved to help others?

Religious Leader - " Well, sorry all those sick people are not stuck in the streets, but we ran out of funding... But the good new, You can take a look at our new 24k gold candle holders... "

Food for thought...

- to nasch_

Like stevejluke, I am playing the "Devil's Advocate"... Personally, I think many of the institutions could use improvement, and should look closely at the difference of their doctorine and that of the original scriptures... and make changes that help them better reflect that faith that they profess...

As for humans being inherently evil... All humans have evil tendencies, but as individual, we can rise above it.but as groups, it gets harder to contain... i.e. riots...it's part of being a predator...

Now it time for me to make my ritual sacrifice, I have stalked my prey long enough...
the fear I sense from them is just to irresistable, now where to dump the body :-P

- MaxxDmg...

- ' There is no rest...'
 

Posts:6,750
Registered: 1/25/04
Re: Kurt Goedel  
Jun 3, 2004 3:48 PM (reply 284 of 635)



 
When the base religious organization make part of the
doctorine,
"We are the only TRUE faith"...

that religious organizition basically invalidates all
other beliefs,
so other religions and their followers are looked at
as false, heretics, evil, and whatnot...

Whoa, evil? You're making a big jump there. Believing someone else's doctrines are incorrect does NOT imply believing that person is evil.

This shows intolerance and hate,

No, it doesn't. It shows disagreement. If some churches claim that others' doctrines are false, and also hate the other churches and their followers, that does not mean that the former necessitates the latter.
 
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